[kash]

I'm sure I'm wrong, but seems to me the hate in our combos has less to do with dps and more to do the innate hate and how many swings/hits are in a combo, actual hits at that, not reactive. So, mabus might be seeing less agro build up with counterweight as it has less hits in the combo overall.

[t0ucht0ne]

Unless it's something "magical" like goad or irritate - threat is a pretty easy formula:

DPS x HATE PERCENTAGE MULTIPLIER = THREAT

Increase either of those two variables and you increase threat. Of course there are other attributes that can have an affect on threat.

For example, I see tons of guardians running around with accessories that give them lots of protection and armor but don't do anything to increase their hit rating. Let's say you throw a three button combo and you whiff or miss on EVEN ONE of the white hits in that combo - then you will NOT get the effects of the combo finisher off (usually a shitload of DPS). So - how important is hit rating - especially on 85+ epic mobs? Obviously a huge factor.

Why do casters and rogues love crit rating so much but your average pug guardian/heavy is happy to sit at 3%? Crit rating = 50% more damage NOT INCLUDING your critical damage rating... So, how important is crit rating to a guardian? How important is critical rating to ALL CLASSES?

I see this kind of stuff all the time and it drives me nuts when I then hear someone say that "guardians threat has been nerfed" or "the guard is broken" or my favorite, "only polearm guards can hold aggro."

What about the average guardian who loads up on constitution and ignores the most important attribute of all to a guard - strength? It's the uber attribute for a guard - it not only increases your DPS but also your armor mitigation. It's a two-headed win on both fronts and yet - you see guards running around with constitution rings - why? - we already have a shitload of constitution. For the first time I finally achieved what I had always hoped would happen - I actually have more strength on my guard then constitution.

The list goes on - so in my estimation - the equation above really is how it all works - but that doesn't mean if you just increase your DPS and hate multiplier things suddenly work - it's all the little (or big?) things that contribute to whether having high dps/hate will even benefit a guard.

Off topic probably... apologies.

Once again, if it's not what I'm saying I'd like to know where I'm mistaken so I can compensate on my own guard.

- Stacie

[Gaarah]

Originally Posted by t0ucht0ne For example, I see tons of guardians running around with accessories that give them lots of protection and armor but don't do anything to increase their hit rating. Let's say you throw a three button combo and you whiff or miss on EVEN ONE of the white hits in that combo - then you will NOT get the effects of the combo finisher off (usually a shitload of DPS).

Just checking, but by white hits in the three button combo you mean the lead-up directional attacks before the combo goes off?

You're saying Hit Rating is important because if the enemy dodges/blocks/parries one of your white hits then it counts as whiffing a white hit thus your combo will be affected by the 5%/-20%/-40% reduction in combo damage, right?

[fredgsanford]

Originally Posted by t0ucht0ne Unless it's something "magical" like goad or irritate - threat is a pretty easy formula: DPS x HATE PERCENTAGE MULTIPLIER = THREAT Increase either of those two variables and you increase threat. Of course there are other attributes that can have an affect on threat. For example, I see tons of guardians running around with accessories that give them lots of protection and armor but don't do anything to increase their hit rating. Let's say you throw a three button combo and you whiff or miss on EVEN ONE of the white hits in that combo - then you will NOT get the effects of the combo finisher off (usually a shitload of DPS). So - how important is hit rating - especially on 85+ epic mobs? Obviously a huge factor. Why do casters and rogues love crit rating so much but your average pug guardian/heavy is happy to sit at 3%? Crit rating = 50% more damage NOT INCLUDING your critical damage rating... So, how important is crit rating to a guardian? How important is critical rating to ALL CLASSES? I see this kind of stuff all the time and it drives me nuts when I then hear someone say that "guardians threat has been nerfed" or "the guard is broken" or my favorite, "only polearm guards can hold aggro." What about the average guardian who loads up on constitution and ignores the most important attribute of all to a guard - strength? It's the uber attribute for a guard - it not only increases your DPS but also your armor mitigation. It's a two-headed win on both fronts and yet - you see guards running around with constitution rings - why? - we already have a shitload of constitution. For the first time I finally achieved what I had always hoped would happen - I actually have more strength on my guard then constitution. The list goes on - so in my estimation - the equation above really is how it all works - but that doesn't mean if you just increase your DPS and hate multiplier things suddenly work - it's all the little (or big?) things that contribute to whether having high dps/hate will even benefit a guard. Off topic probably... apologies. Once again, if it's not what I'm saying I'd like to know where I'm mistaken so I can compensate on my own guard. - Stacie

False about that formula, that is not how it works lol

Also CON is bad for a guard, only clothies like to buff up their HP.
Mitigation

[Swordborn]

Damage is part of threat but it is not everything. Like has been mentioned before if it was mostly damage= threat then we would never hold agro over a demo or sin.

Ie: When changing agro in t3 you can use mostly a few high threat combos, irritate, coh, and Stall the Advance. The other night after Arby I was LAST in damage done but had taken the most damage in the raid.

If you are S/S and trying to take agro you should be using Overreach, if you are pole you should be using FA/Storm Strike. Throw in irriate and coh when you can and you will be great at agro as long as you have decent gear.

Remember dps IS a part of threat, but you have tools as a guard that are more important then raw dps numbers. As for Con/STR.... in good raid gear and aa's you will be over 16-17k hp in a decent group... That is more then enough hp... more is always good but STR gives Armor, and helps your damage as well.

[t0ucht0ne]

Originally Posted by Gaarah Just checking, but by white hits in the three button combo you mean the lead-up directional attacks before the combo goes off? You're saying Hit Rating is important because if the enemy dodges/blocks/parries one of your white hits then it counts as whiffing a white hit thus your combo will be affected by the 5%/-20%/-40% reduction in combo damage, right?

Yes, I'm saying if you whiff on the white hits that make up the combo before the finisher you do not get the benefits of the DPS from the combo finisher.

[t0ucht0ne]

Originally Posted by Jimmyup False about that formula, that is not how it works lol Also CON is bad for a guard, only clothies like to buff up their HP. Mitigation

If you read my post you'll see I asked to be corrected... Could you please enlighten how it works if DPS x HATE MULTIPLIER = THREAT is not the formula.

I'd think it was kind of important to know - I certainly am interested. Not sure I'm so far off I deserve a ****ing "LOL" - but whatever.

[t0ucht0ne]

Originally Posted by Swordborn Damage is part of threat but it is not everything. Like has been mentioned before if it was mostly damage= threat then we would never hold agro over a demo or sin.

That's not what I said. I said DPS multipled by your hate percentage modifier = threat - HUGE difference.

A sin generates aggro with DPS multiplied by (usually I'd hope) a minus hate percentage.

Once again, Jimmy seems to know the answer - hopefully he can tell us how it works.

[Gaarah]

Originally Posted by t0ucht0ne Yes, I'm saying if you whiff on the white hits that make up the combo before the finisher you do not get the benefits of the DPS from the combo finisher.

Lol. Well, if you whiff the hit as in completely miss the mob cause you are not in the right position then hit rating won't help you. If the mob blocks/parries/dodges a white hit (as in it lands but you do 0 damage because it is deflected) but your combo -does- land then the combo is not affected by the minus damage.

Having a white hit blocked =/= missing a white hit. It will not lower your combo damage on your combo. Hit rating is not the most useful stat for guardians at all. Pretty low on the list, imo, unless you're counting PVP, and even then it's not top 3.







Jimmy is refering to the same thing Swordborn is - damage is a PORTION of hate or threat, whatever you want to call it. But for a guardian this damage*hate increase is worth less than what you gain from the aggro abilities like Cry of Havok.

I main tank as S&B and I am usually in the bottom quarter of DPS. Even other tanks, other guardians even with the same gear, are sometimes above the DPS list above me wearing the same gear - I usually have a full T2/T3 polearm guardian in my group with 10x Vengeance counters that does not pull off me (and he's way high up on the DPS list). If I Cry of Havok/Irritate/Stall the Advance/Forced Engage more than them I easily retain aggro.

You can look up as a stat what your plus or minus hate % is. If it was simply damage multiplied by this number giving me my total hate then the high DPSers would still blow me away even factoring in their minus hate.

I mean... the #1 DPS compared to me is always well over double my DPS (many times over this, actually). Even if he has -30% hate and I had +30% hate (this is more hate than I have and much more minus hate than he would have) then if he does just twice the DPS as me he still would have more hate than me.

[Mabus]

I do believe the formula is Hate Coefficient X DPS X Hate Modifier = threat.

I am basing it off the first, and most detailed guardian write-up I have ever read. It started me tanking before I got to 80. It was written by the guy who did all the tanking write-ups for wow. It was very in depth, but he left the game and I havent been able to find the post. Does anyone know what I am talking about? Overreach was 100, Strike and Guard was 75, DB was 60 etc. I almost think it has to be this way otherwise sword and board could NEVER compete with polearm (which did not have the innate hate).

As for the charge, I would not be surprised if they changed it a long time ago, but I never read it and it still seems to be the same. Again, I am speaking in the past, but learned this the hard way charging mobs in kylikkis, you hit them they just run right off to someone else. Need to irritate them first.