[tigg99]

Originally Posted by Kirabi I have been sitting back watching people pretend that they are expert on all classes.I am not silly enough to pretend that i know all the on all classes but i do know fairly good understanding of the solider classes(even though i don't know everything on soldiers) Stuff that sticks out -Everybody gave soldiers 6/6.Conqs don't have the survivability of Guards or DT.Conqs are more like 5/6 than 6/6 - People do know that DTs have a Ranged spell or two.A pet and lots AoE splash damage stuff. - Conqs with their duel wielding and 2 handers have higher DPS than other 2 soldiers.Couple scenarios a where a Polearms Guards and Talisman DT put up decent to good dps but overall situations Conqs have more consistent dps than other two soldiers classes. Overall they are lot of people putting out guesstimates of classes they only play a few times if at all. At work i taught what is a better way to do this(actually i stole it from war hammer) The first key to understand how class should be balance in Aoc should begin with throwing out the class groups because almost no two class in aoc operate the same way,you have some synergy with demo/necros and sins/barbs and guards/DTs but as much they have in common they are so much different.For classes are they better label Tanks, range dps,Melee Dps and healer/support. The second key to understanding that most of Aoc 12 classes are hybrid classes(almost all classes in AoC are two or more classes merged to together).Trying to say ToS is doing to much damage because it is healer is the wrong thinking ToS, BS, Conq, HoX,(Dt to limited extent) are what Paladins,Shamans,Death Knights,Druids in WoW.If you saw Paladin in WoW on being on top in dps you would not blink an eye,So when it happens in Aoc why do people freak out though some of classes are failing the Hybrid philosophy(i stole that from wow devs) a.Hybrid should never do better than a pure classes at that role B.Hybrid should give up something,For example if ToS is close to topping in dps then its healing should not be amazing too. but overall the class design and thought process imo are ok. Tanks Dark Templar Guardian Range DPS Necromancer Demonologist Ranger ToS* Melee DPS HoX* Barbarian Bear Shaman* Conqueror* Assassin Healers/Support PoM *Hybrid Classes that fill more than one role My "Opinion" on class roles and Balance Dark Templar Damage Low-Medium Armor High Range Low-Medium CC Medium Guardian Damage Low-Medium Armor High Range Low CC Low Conqueror Damage Medium-High Armor High Range Low CC Low-Medium HoX Damage High Armor Low Range Medium CC Medium-High Necromancer Damage High Armor Low Range Medium-High CC High Demonlogist Damage High Armor Low Range Medium-High CC High Barbarian Damage High Armor Low Range Low CC Medium-High Assassin Damage High Armor Low Range Low CC Medium Ranger Damage Medium Armor Medium-High Range Medium CC High PoM Damage Low Armor Low Range Medium-High CC Medium ToS Damage Medium-High Armor Low Range Medium-High CC Medium Bear Shaman Damage Medium-High Armor Medium Range Medium CC Medium What you can get from this. Maybe Demos and Necro have too much CC,Barbs probably should get medium armor imo,Rangers need some sort of overall working/tweaking because they always look awesome on paper but don't quite produce.Guards and PoMs need a little extra tweaking being closest thing to pure classes.

I know all the classes but there is just no way to explain it under 4 categories, i did this during my break for fun.

[Archorus]

Originally Posted by Yablo I thought I'd post a subjective analysis that I came up with and posted on a testlive pvp thread for evaluating class balance in pvp (primarily group pvp). I' curious to see what others come up with... Please fill if out if you have time.... and please limit the range score to 3. Also, try to give some input as to why you score some things high or low, write a conclusion of how interpret your results. Sounds like a H/W assignment doesnt it? There are 4 traits in this game which makes up the pvp ability of a class.. That being... Range DPS (also ability to kite and still dps) Survivability (both anti CC's and high armor/health) CC's Yet it does seem that some of these classes have all of these traits or just to much of each.. If one was to list each class and score each by low, low-moderate, moderate, moderate-high, high for each of these traits, you should expect all character classes to be somewhat equal. Assign each 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 respectfully. Range cannot exceed 3. Evaluate based on how affective each class is in each category. Take into account the build (feat tree) that your scoring. Necro/Demo Range = 2.5 DPS = 5 (just stand still damage they get 4 + 1 for being able to kite and dps) Survivability = 2 ( a few anti CC's, 8000 hp which is decent relative to 10000 which soldier classes have) CC = 3 for demo, 4 for necro (fear, stun, long easy cast snare) Total 12.5 for demo, 13.5 necro Barb range= 0 DPS = 2 (cannot kite and DPS, isnt top even in stand still dps) Survivability = 3.5 (lots of anti CC, decent health/armor heal ability) CC's = 5 (i'd say the only class that gets a 5 is barb, low cds and lots of CC) total = 10.5 Ranger Range= 3 (just because they have a little more range) DPS= 3 Survivability = 2 (about same health and anti CC as necro demo) CC's = 2 (3 if xbow) total 10 ToS Range= 2 (most of ToS damage comes from near melee range) DPS= 3 (can kite while dps but still has to stay in small radius) Survivability = 3 (can self heal,nice ignore damage spell, 7k hp) CC's = 3 (a root and a stun, silence) total 11 Guardian (polearm) Range = 0 DPS= 3 (pole arm is decent) Survivability = 5 (high damage resistance, last stand etc) CC's = 1 (they have a decent knockdown) total = 10 Assassin (lotus/general) Range= 0 DPS= 3 Survivability = 4 (lots of anti CC's, cats paw, high evade, high magic resistance (if lotus)) CC's= 4 (snapkick, grim corrupt, "fear" charm and silence) total = 11 (corruption would score lower) Conq/DT Range= 0 DPS= 1 Surv. = 5 (same reason as for guards) CC's = 3.5 total 9.5 (duel wield conq. might score a bit higher ~ 10.5..) HoX (possession) Range = 1.5 (still quite within melee range for most part) DPS= 4 Surv. = 2 CC's = 3 (aoe but typical CC's that are redundant with other classes, short duration) total 10.5 (avatar would score very low) PoM Range = 2 DPS= 2 (good poms have pretty good damage, long cast times means little kiting) Surv. = 3 (heals, damage absorb/ignore spells, 8k hp?) CC's = 3 (fear, stun, knockdown) total = 10 Almost forgot Bear Shaman BS (highly depends on spec) Range= 0 DPS= 1.5 Surv. = 4.5 (heals, med armor, spell absorb spell, iron/stone hide, 1 anti CC root) CC's = 4 (fast stun, knockdown, long silence, snare) total = 10 just from an opinion based value assignment in these 4 traits list and rules; it seems that Necro/Demo are a bit above that of classes in evaluating their ability/utility in group pvp.. mainly because of dps and range combined to equal 12.5 and 13.5; even if I were to score them a bit more conservatively they still are ahead. I lumped Dt/Conq together.. as I dont know much about these classes other than the seem to be nearing the same except with a few different CC variations. Please, if you have time, fill out your own analysis in this format.

i think you should modify the range rating for mellee , as a guardian with 0 range is not the same as a sin with 0 range , our hitbox is much smaller

[Yablo]

Originally Posted by Aell I'm criticizing your notion of how scoring works. Take Ngoc's scoring. Even if I didn't disagree with it utterly, in a vacuum it still gives us absolutely nothing.

But this analysis is already sugggesting something... There is already a trend from the 4 scores posted..

That being some classes have a little to much of everything that add or gives to one classes pvp functionality.

[Yablo]

Originally Posted by Archorus i think you should modify the range rating for mellee , as a guardian with 0 range is not the same as a sin with 0 range , our hitbox is much smaller

I didnt base the Range score on actual true range.. I based it on how much of an advantage or how it helps a specific class execute combos or spells w/o having to be in a melee range. So I assign all melee a range score of 0.

[Aell]

Originally Posted by Yablo But this analysis is already sugggesting something... There is already a trend from the 4 scores posted.. That being some classes have a little to much of everything that add or gives to one classes pvp functionality.

Well, no. It doesn't. Take your "CC" category. A ranger can feat for more CC than any other character class. However, he can do effectively zero point-blank damage and 4/5ths of those CCs are melee range. None of them last long enough to regain effective range without sprinting, which removes the possibility of meaningful damage.

Which is better - the 30-second AoE insta-cast root of a HoX or the snare of an Assassin? Or better, the snare+speedbuff of a demo?

CCs are not created equal. Counting them is a worthless exercise.

[Paveclaw]

Originally Posted by Aell Well, no. It doesn't. Take your "CC" category. A ranger can feat for more CC than any other character class. However, he can do effectively zero point-blank damage and 4/5ths of those CCs are melee range. None of them last long enough to regain effective range without sprinting, which removes the possibility of meaningful damage. Which is better - the 30-second AoE insta-cast root of a HoX or the snare of an Assassin? Or better, the snare+speedbuff of a demo? CCs are not created equal. Counting them is a worthless exercise.

Good post.

I think the Devs are on crack or something, or have someone who is extremely immature in control.

It is frustrating enough to try to melee vs casters. You throw in caster chain cc's ( ToS root, then aoe fear, then an INSTANT 360 deg. KB, if you are still alive).

edit: Most guilds won't run minigames unless they have a TOS, Necro, AND Demo on their team, why even try unless you have an unstoppable team ?

What's ironic is that the Conquerer feat , Lumbering Hulk, removes the HOX root ( about the only snare root that doesn't bypass LH), too bad you actually move SLOWER when its active, bad idea.

edit2: Melee classes aren't created equal either, Barbs can get you to hold still while they beat on you. Conq damage is Gimp unless you spec a build with almost no CC. Assassin burst damage is higher and their combos are faster, but they are squishy.

edit3: Should score them with regards to build. IE Brute conq gets x score, carnage conq gets y score, etc.

[Binderato]

Making score sheets is all fine and dandy, but it doesn't really compare the class balance issues of certain classes vs other classes. We are forgetting that during this rating casters can permasprint and melee need to actually land there combos.

I have 3 80s all in my sig and I can tell you caster permasprint is what makes this game imbalanced. Endurance should do a hell of a lot more for combo classes than it does now. My ranger runs out of stamina like no tommorow where as my tos and pom just lol and pop a pot.