[Unutterable]

Originally Posted by Aell You've seen me rip into somebody before. This is just gentle persuasion.

Fine, save your gentle pursuasion for Craig the next time he mentions the words "Balanced for group."

[Yablo]

Originally Posted by Aell Best knowledge I have is Ranger, Barb, DT, Guard. For any one of those classes, I could make you four (relatively) viable and widely-used builds. I could make you another 4 each of even more widely-used and considerably less effective. Most of these builds would take little to no account of your bizarre scoring system - for a start, crossbow rangers have a range exceeded by every single spellcaster without gear or feating, had you considered that for a microsecond?* - and their effectiveness, if any, would not be reflected in the arbitrary scores you're implementing. That would give us 32 seperate scores just for four classes and even then not approach 1/3 the viable builds. It's this kind of thing that makes "balanced for groups" exactly as retarded as it is and your arbitrary and somewhat deranged scoring system as worthless as it will inevitably turn out to be. *Also known as "the casting time of a demo CC"

Score your own then.. . If you feel that rangers affective range is less than that of demo/necro then give them less of a score..

The scoring is not at all awkward, or bizarre... Straightforward, Im asking you all to assess and score the ability of each class within these 4 categories.. do you regard the range of a demo to be quite useful and do you feel it accounts for, in large, them being a good class? Give them a max sore of 3..

its pretty simple.. so stop responding with your arguments and just score the classes.. one doesnt need to be specific about which build it is either.. you can generalize each class with where you feel it falls in line to other in regards to group pvp, pvp ability... just give them a score.

Im not asking for you to agree with me.. just copy/paste and fill in your own score assessment.

If you feel that range vastly contributes to a classes greatness in pvp.. fine give them a 5 instead of limiting it to 3.. I however, felt that range is an advantage but not as significant as the other 3 categories so I cap it at 3.

[Yablo]

Originally Posted by Aell You've seen me rip into somebody before. This is just gentle persuasion.

Your trying to persuade me to think the same you do? What good does that do? This thread is NOT for argument its merely to quantitatively analyze the opinions of players with respect to class ability in pvp/group pvp.

Make your own numerical assessment.. if you want, add more categories if you feel they are necessary. Otherwise just stop rippin on my analysis and make your own..

Range ( score according to how range plays in favor of this class, give it a nubmer 1-3)
Survivability (score according to how much damage this class can take in general if you want to be specific to a build go ahead; number 1-5)
CC (how affective are the CC of this class, in general or be specific about one build, give it a nubmer 1-5)
DPS (ability to dish out damage both standing and running/kiting; score 1-5)

[Caustic]

I'm really puzzled to your scoring of assassin's survivability to that of Barbarian and Ranger. Seeing that you mentioned they have a lot of anti-cc, but all the anti-cc they have comes from the general tree.... same tree that rangers and barbs have access to. Not to mention worse armor and a significantly lower health pool.

What really puzzles me is the disparity in your ranking of an Assassin to a Conq. Just looking at this I don't think you've ever played both classes otherwise this would be quite clear to you.

Here's where I rank these 2 classes based on this system. Don't mean to single out any class out here but I play both of these extensively in pvp and my opinion is this:

Assassin (lotus/gen)

Range: 0 - hands down worst range in game.

Dps: 4 - Decent single target

Survivability: 2 - GLE 1k heal over 10 sec. Anti-CC is a joke since they give no immunity so you are free to be cc'd right after use. One of the lowest health pools in game. Cat's paw has barely any effect in pvp.

CC: 3 - aoe charm (very nice), knockback/silence (only works on light and lower armor class), GC snare (40% on target - 30% is removable through purge/escape artist, or lumbering hulk)

Overall: 9


Assassin (Corruption/General)

Range: 0.5 - FtD charge get the .5 here

DPS: 3.5 - smaller burst and sustained dps than lotus, but shorter cooldown on abilities.

Survivability: 2.5 - a few life leech combos abilities that potentially heal for slightly more than GLE if you can land your combos. AoD for CC immunity. Better passive evade than lotus.

CC: 2 - 2 sec stun. single target fear. GC snare.

Overall: 8.5

Conq (brute/gen)

Range: 1.5 - 2HE has decent range for melee second highest i believe. AoE combo (HoFS). AoE dps banners for fairly large area. Charge.

DPS: 3 - Decent dps for a tanking spec, many active and passive abilities to increase dps during a fight, frenzy stance. Aoe DPS banner.

Survivability: 5 - Access to 2 bubbles, defensive stance, good natural health regen. Retributive damage. Mini green heal banner. Ability to regain health on physical damage taken (1 assassin or barb combo = full health bar). Passive self heal through combos.

CC: 4 - AoE knockback with HOFS and BoA (refreshes cool down if party member kills something). A second knock back combo. Fear combo. Snare (90% on target - not removable). Interrupt/Silence.

Overall: 13.5 - Arguably the best pure melee class in the game.

[RobertFisher]

my order of overall summed up pvp 1v1 class order

best group

tos,demo,hox

worst group

gaurdian/conq/dt/sin

but i dont know ****.

i actually think most balanced class in the game has always been ranger.

not that i play one. i just felt that yeah not to op. not to squishy but yet enough to make u say. ok thats not complete bs.

i think they should fix the stamina issue then address these idea's

once stamina becomes an issue for casters.
the game will do a "poleshift"

hmm pole shift.. maybe ill go pole-arm tempest. in defensive stance!

[Aell]

How can you score something like range? Seriously? Without taking account of what you're fighting?

Suppose you're a demo fighting a ranger. How much good is your range? Not much, since both parties have that "advantage". The demo has more outside of spellweaving, the ranger has more if he wishes to get himself killed by entering FPS mode but this is a pure DPS/CC match - whoever has the fastest ranged CCs with the lowest cooldowns will win.

(Note for the congenitally addicted to TV - that's the demo).


Suppose you're a ranger fighting a guardian. (You'd be crazy, but that's your affair). You have range, he doesn't! Woot! Oh hold on, he has a stamina-free get-in-your-face button. In fact, he has access to two of them. And your point-blank damage against a skilled player is, er, as close to zero as possible.

See? How do you rate range, unless you're facing a Lotus assassin or a Zerker barb? The answer is, you can't on its own. None of the items you have listed is rateable in a vacuum. If you have awesome range but no ranged CCs and no point-blank DPS you're going to die. If you have no range at all but you can close range easily and often, are you disadvantaged?

Survivability. Currently necros have great survivability unless you're a Lotus assassin. So what is it? Is it lousy (for that 4/12,561,111,980 possible feat builds)? or is it great (for all the others)?

The only actively measurable stat you've given us is DPS and if we based our calculations on that, Demo would be top and Reaver barb would be second best PvP class.

Well, it's half right, I suppose.

[Aell]

Originally Posted by Unutterable Fine, save your gentle pursuasion for Craig the next time he mentions the words "Balanced for group."

The really sad part is, I'm prepared to bet money that there is a "Class Balance" spreadsheet somewhere inside Funcom's HQ, probably pinned to a wall with underlining on it.

And further, I'll bet the criteria on it are exactly the same kind of dross as recommended in this thread.

[Yablo]

Originally Posted by Caustic I'm really puzzled to your scoring of assassin's survivability to that of Barbarian and Ranger. Seeing that you mentioned they have a lot of anti-cc, but all the anti-cc they have comes from the general tree.... same tree that rangers and barbs have access to. Not to mention worse armor and a significantly lower health pool. What really puzzles me is the disparity in your ranking of an Assassin to a Conq. Just looking at this I don't think you've ever played both classes otherwise this would be quite clear to you.

Rangers as I understand and as I often see do not spec into the anti cc's in general tree like barbs and sins do? I do not have a high level ranger.. but from what I've witnessed in fighting them, its seems none of the rangers I have attacked have any anti CC's except anti root. I was also told they generally dont spec into the general tree, which made sense being that I seem them feared/stunned as often as I do.

I dont and have never played a conq.. though from fighting them and observing what they are susceptible to is how I based my score...

[Yablo]

Originally Posted by RobertFisher my order of overall summed up pvp 1v1 class order best group tos,demo,hox worst group gaurdian/conq/dt/sin but i dont know ****. i actually think most balanced class in the game has always been ranger. not that i play one. i just felt that yeah not to op. not to squishy but yet enough to make u say. ok thats not complete bs. i think they should fix the stamina issue then address these idea's once stamina becomes an issue for casters. the game will do a "poleshift" hmm pole shift.. maybe ill go pole-arm tempest. in defensive stance!

why did you even post? This has been done time and time again.. READ the premise of the thread.. This is a numerical analysis thread not dialect, or discussion argument.

[Ngoc]

NecroDemo
Range = 3/3
DPS = 4.5/5
Survivability = 2.5/6
CC = 3.5/5

Total 13.5

Barb
range= 0/3
DPS = 3/5
Survivability = 4/6
CC's = 5/5

total = 12

Ranger
Range= 2.5/3
DPS= 3.5/5
Survivability = 2.5/6
CC's = 3/5

total 11.5

ToS
Range= 2/3
DPS= 3.5/5
Survivability = 4/6
CC's = 3/5

total 12.5

Guardian (polearm)
Range = 0/3
DPS= 3/5
Survivability = 6/6
CC's = 1/5

total = 10

Assassin (lotus/general)
Range= 0/3
DPS= 3/5
Survivability = 4/6
CC's= 4/5

total = 11

DT
Range= 0/3
DPS= 3/5
Surv. = 6/6
CC's = 3.5/5

total 12.5

CONQ
Range= 0/3
DPS= 3/5
Surv. = 6/6
CC's = 3/5

total 12

HoX (possession)
Range = 1.5/3
DPS= 4.5/5
Surv. = 2.5/6
CC's = 3/5

total 11.5

PoM
Range = 2/3
DPS= 2.5/5
Surv. = 4/6
CC's = 3/5

total = 11.5

Almost forgot Bear Shaman
BS (highly depends on spec)
Range= 0/3
DPS= 2.5/5
Surv. = 6/6
CC's = 4/5

total = 12.5

(not talking about 1vs1)
between 10to12 class are more or less balanced
12.5 are on the strong side little OP (BS, DT and TOS)
13.5 obviously caster has it all